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Michelle Seiler Tucker is a #1 bestselling author and leading authority on buying, selling, fixing, and growing businesses.  Michelle joined forces on her new book, Exit Rich, with Sharon Lechter, finance expert and co-author of Rich Dad Poor Dad, to create a must-have guide for all business owners – whether they’re gearing up to sell a business now or just starting to build out their company – to sell for huge profits in the future.

We explore tons of solid lessons in buidling and growing a successful business, the reasons the market data you think you know are wrong, and so much that is needed as real truths in business for startups and major organizations everywhere. Thank you Michelle for sharing so much great info! 

You can get a preview of the book at https://exitrichbook.com which also gets you the hardcover copy to you when it launches in June. That gets you access to Club CEO and much more as well.

Follow Michell on Twitter here: https://twitter.com/MSeilerTucker 

Check out Michelle’s website for more info here:  https://seilertucker.com

TRANSCRIPT – Powered by HappyScribe

You’ve brought a lot of great information to the market. You’ve got a recent book called Exit Rich. We got a lot of stuff we’ll talk about. So with that, Michelle, do you want to give yourself a quick a quick bio to folks that are brand new to you? And then we’ll talk about the book and in your background, what brought you to write it?


All right, so I’m not sure what you want me to say on my M&A mergers and acquisitions, Michelle Seiler-Tucker been in business for best selling companies a little over 20 years. I personally sell 500 businesses. My team has.

So my myself and my team have sort of a thousand companies and we’ve done thousands upon thousands of valuations. I also specialize in buying, selling, fixing, growing companies. So I’ll buy businesses, flip them. I partner with business owners, investing my time, energy effort and capital and resources to put business owners on a bill to sell program. And like I said, what we really specialize in doing is fixing businesses because eight out of 10 businesses will sell, according to Steve Forbes.

And so we fix businesses, we grow them. We put them on a bill to sell model and we merge businesses and sell businesses.

So that’s what we do at any given time. On five to 10 businesses, I’m actually building to sell.

Now, that obviously has come from you’ve effectively built a strong system around what it is you need to do to be successful in this.

I’m curious, Michelle, what was the background that brought you to to taking this on as a as a task in your first time show? And I forgot to mention, I’m an author of three books.

That’s right. Yeah. Not just one book. Of course, it’s a rich the most is one we’ll talk about, but we’ll talk about the others as well. You’ve got it. You’re very prolific. What brought you into being in the business of buying business and mergers and acquisitions? Michelle.

So I’ve always been an entrepreneur of all many different companies, even from a very young age. And I did go into franchise sales, franchise development and franchise consulting and sold hundreds and hundreds of franchises.

But I kept having lots of buyers ask me for existing businesses and how many existing businesses, because I was selling new franchises and I was actually partners in different franchise laws and equity partner. Then I decided, you know, there’s so many buyers out here for good existing businesses versus new startup franchises that I should start my mergers and acquisitions firm. And that’s really how I got started.

Now, the you talked about being an early entrepreneur, what actually gave you the the entrepreneurial bug? Was it because I’m imagining you? Probably that’s something we we develop, but we learn about often quite early in our lives.

Yeah. I don’t say there’s anything that gave me I didn’t really grow up in a family of entrepreneurs. My dad had a couple of businesses. He wasn’t really I wouldn’t say he was very successful, but he had a few businesses. Other than that, I didn’t really grow up with entrepreneurs.

I just knew from early on that I didn’t like to be told what to do and I want to do my own thing, march to the beat of my own drum. And I just knew I always knew I wanted to be my own boss, I guess.

Yeah. My favorite thing is founders often described themselves as unemployable just because it’s like they they know what they want to achieve and they certainly are. They can’t take direction in order to get to it. So, yeah, I mean, we still got to be employed by our clients, right? Our clients. Employers don’t we don’t listen to our clients and don’t follow our client’s instructions. Sometimes we can become unemployed very easily. So rather, you want to be employed or be told what to do.

Even if you own your own boss, you still are answering to somebody.

Now, when you were working through in the franchise area, you know, which is developed on the idea of using a systematic approach. When did when did you sort of see that as an opportunity to go outside and bring that systematic approach than to, as you said, like existing businesses? And I’m curious that that first one or the first few that you you decided to take on.

What I’m sorry, what systematic approach are you referring to, or just like when do you when did you see how you could take the practices that you had learned from working in the franchise and then bring this that sort of those methodologies to an existing business?

Yeah, so it’s extremely different. And if you’re not familiar with it or most people aren’t, it’s very different. I mean, becoming a partner with a new franchise or a franchise or and doing a franchise sales franchise development, franchise consulting is extremely different than selling existing businesses and fixing and growing and going to sell existing businesses. There’s really very little similarity. The only similarity is maybe in the existing franchises or because existing franchises are really has to operate on what I call the six P’s, the six P’s that we talk about in my book, Exit Reg, if they don’t build a vault, a solid foundation of solid infrastructure on the six PS, they’re not going to they’re not going to be sustainable.

They’re not going to be able to scale. They’re not going to be able to stay in business for very long. So there are some similarities there. As far as the main franchise corporation, as far as selling new franchises, new franchises is completely different than selling existing businesses is really zero similarities because for a new franchise, for new franchise, we’re looking for the franchisee or qualifying the franchisee in a financial capacity and our skill sets. We need to do that with existing businesses.

You qualify buyers on their financial capacity and their skill sets. But with a new franchise, we’re also really strongly looking at demographics and what we should place. This new franchise, you know, where they want strip mall location, we should put it in, you know, and then we’re helping them hire their people and we’re hiring. We’re helping them really based our business and start their business on what I call the Steve six PS with an existing business that we have the location already have the people in place.

Right. They already have and are operating on many of the six figures, maybe not all, but some of them. So there are some similarities, like I said, in a franchise or type of it. But as far as our new franchises, compared to existing businesses, it’s completely different.

When you saw the and the opportunity to affect somebodies growth and, you know, help, as you said, like to build towards sale, you know what what was what’s exciting to you about seeing that? You know, obviously there’s a there’s both a business and a people impact. I mean, I’d love to hear, you know, what what drew you to be able to bring people through that journey to prepare them for sale?

You mean for existing or for different existing? What prepared me, I think it’s already many different companies in many different verticals sitting behind a desk knowing what works, what doesn’t, you know, really figuring out. Doesn’t matter what industry you’re in, the six PS or the six PS and they they you know, it’s a foundation that you really need in every vertical regardless. And I think that’s kind of what prepared me to seeing what works, what doesn’t work.

And, you know, most business owners, a lot of business owners are not sellable. Like I said before, 80 percent of businesses don’t sell. And the reasons for those are all similar. It’s not necessarily make the same mistakes over and over and over again.

And so that’s, you know, spending 20, 20 plus years in the trenches is selling franchises and then selling businesses.

I think all of that is what prepared me, not to mention my own company is that I’ve done I’ve operated.

And that’s the the interesting thing. As you said, a lot of it’s repeatable things that you see.

And but for those business builders and owners, I think the tough part is they’re so they’re they’re very sort of myopic in their view. They can’t see outside of their own set of of running the organization. It’s probably and this is why they need, you know, you to come in and say, look, I’m I’m looking into what you’re doing and I’ve seen this play out and it’s not going to play out well. Right.

What’s the what’s the reception when you begin to consult through that process and have to kind of show people the works of the challenges that they’re facing?

So some are open to change and some are not. I always say you can only grow the business as much as you can grow the owner. I don’t know if you’ve ever watched the show. Marcus Lemonis The profits on CNBC, but he gives them clear instructions of what to do and what to change, and they all push back. I don’t think anybody just takes it and does it. Nobody really follows his lead and his instructions, even though he’s really clearly the expert.

And same thing with me. I’m clearly an expert at what I do, you know. So, yeah, we get a lot of pushback because, again, they’re entrepreneurs. They don’t want to be told what to do. They don’t want to answer to anybody and, you know, like us. And it’s tough because you’re right. I mean, they don’t see things when you’re in your fog, it’s foggy and you really need an outsider’s perspective, you know, to to help really read the warning signs and keep you out of the danger zone.

But business owners have to be willing to listen. They have to be willing to, you know, get advice from experts, somebody who’s been on the road before.

And they have to be willing to to change and make change. And some are. Some aren’t. You know, I’ve I’ve sat in meetings and told business owners, don’t tell your employees that you’re selling your business, and the next thing to do is turn around, tell their employees. And then I wonder why 50 percent of the workforce quit sooner.

So it’s just.

Is it just business owners want to do things their own way, so it’s really our job to to try to get the business owners to understand that this is for your own good. This is for your protection. This is to help protect your company and help maximize your value. And that’s what we do. You know, we we don’t go in and force things. We do it from a educational perspective versus just trying to slam something down their throat.

And luckily, you’ve got the believability because you’ve got proof in execution, right, and I think that will hope that that helps those those founders to at least trust.

But like you said, there’s a there’s the psychology of the founder.

They’re there.

They’re pretty sure they’ve got the right idea in the market.

Just isn’t ready versus.

Yeah, maybe you need to meet in the middle with the markets. Right?

I mean, put yourself in their shoes. You know, if you’re running your business and the day to day doing all this stuff and somebody comes out and says, you’re doing everything wrong, the first thing you’re going to do is push back. That’s right.

So you don’t want to go in there pushing because then you’re going to automatically get pushed back.

So you want to really go in there and and look at all the things that they’re doing. Right. And highlight all the things that they’re doing right. And then come in and bring in the areas of opportunity to where they can really affect change and growth.

When you raised it earlier already, you talked about it like we have to listen to our clients and ultimately our customers, right. And it’s that is something that quite often it’s also it’s a dichotomy of the founder that they have to be very like they have to be aiming towards a vision that strong, you know, a mission that’s that’s big quite often. And it’s a weird thing of like they have to listen to the market, but they also have to create a market sometimes.

So when when you’re working with founders, like, how do you kind of merge the reality of the market that they’re facing and yet help them to make maintain their original vision? Is and or is it possible? I’m just curious in in how that’s played out in some of the examples you’ve gone through.

How do I help? I’m trying to understand your question.


So like when because like a founders vision is often built on like we are preparing the world for what it doesn’t know it needs, like they did when he came back to Apple.

Right. But it’s a tough thing when you have to they have to survive in order to execute that vision. And how do you bring the reality of market economics and survival to still staying on the path to executing those big visions?

Well, you know, I tell you, I don’t know how much research you’ve done on the business landscape in the United States, and I think I’m going to take a few minutes to educate. But when I wrote my very first book, Sell Your Business, for what it’s worth in 2013 and did the research back then. Ninety five percent of all startups from one to five years will go out of business. Right. Right. So when I wrote Exit Rich in twenty nineteen, twenty twenty before the pandemic occurred and did the exact same research, I learned the business landscape has actually flip flopped.

It’s only 30 percent now of startups that will go out of business. Those one to five years are not at great risk anymore. Only 30 percent, which is good news to Startup Nation. However. On a twenty seven point six million companies, those businesses have been in business ten years or longer. Seventy seven zero percent will go out of business.

It used to be, if you’re in business five, 10, 15, 20 years, you’re in business for the long haul. Not anymore.

The longer you’re in business, the more you’re at risk of going out of business. Now, you’ve heard about the big public companies, Toys R US being in business. Seventy five years goes out of business.

Steinmark, been in business forever, goes out of business. Pier one, Montgomery Wards is in trouble. J.C. Penney’s is in trouble. Jeanne-Marie goes out of business. Godiva chocolate closes down fifteen hundred locations. GNC closes down nine hundred locations. You know, Blockbuster went out of business because I saw Netflix. I saw the writing on the wall that opportunity by Netflix. And they did nothing, nothing at all and end up going out of business.

That’s the big public companies.

What you’re not hearing about, all because the media doesn’t talk about it. All the private companies on every street corner, in every town, in every state across our great nation, these business owners are all going out of business. They’re exiting poor, not rich. Like my book says, they’re selling for pennies on the dollar. They’re closing our business and many of them are filing bankruptcy. And they’re losing not just our business assets, but the person wants us to because most business owners pierce that corporate bell.

So why is that? Why is that? Well, I’ll tell you why that is the number one reason why the business landscape has changed and flip flopped before the pandemic is because business owners stopped doing one thing. They stopped doing a lot of things.

But the biggest thing is lack of aim.

Aim is always innovate and market, always innovate and market. And many of these business owners get stuck and their ideas of the way they started their business. And they want to do things the way they’ve always done them. You’re either growing or dying. There is no in between growing or dying like Blockbuster did nothing different. Toys R US did nothing different in seventy five years. So business owners have to continue to innovate. If you don’t innovate, you will die.

If you don’t innovate and market, you will die. So to answer your question, I educate business owners on, OK, this is how you started your business. This is the basis of your innovation, but you haven’t done anything new in 20 years.

And here’s the bottom line.

Consumers don’t purchase products and services the way they used to. Whoever makes it easier for the consumer to do business with is a company that’s going to win.

Amazon is winning because Amazon.

Amazon doesn’t really innovate. Think about it, what does Amazon do they make it so easy for the consumer to purchase products, you can practically buy anything, including a horse, and have it delivered to your house in two days.

So not only do you have to innovate, you have to go back to the consumer and ask the consumer, what do you need? What do you want? How can I make it easier for you to do business with our company? Business owners stop innovating, they stop marketing, and most importantly, they stop asking the customer, the client, the consumer, what do you need? What do you want? Or be preemptive and figure out what they want, what they need, like Steve Jobs did.

Here’s the other thing. If you’ve been in business 20, 30, 40 years, your customers are probably aging out, right? You’ve done nothing new and nothing innovative in which to keep those consumers doing business with you.

But more importantly than that, going after the other generations, Generation X millennials.

Right, yeah, now this is interesting and like the statistics you talked about, like there’s a definite a total inversion and unfortunately people are still hung on the metrics they remember they know the stats of yet 95 percent plus of startups will fail. We still quote those numbers.

So it’s it’s wrong, right?

This is this is the horrifying thing about, you know, in the same way people always say you never get fired for buying IBM. I know 11 people that have been fired for buying IBM. It’s because in the end, the week we take this kind of like withI sort of stat that we can have and it outlives its reality, so. What’s missing, Michelle, because you’re you’re in front of the stuff all the time, like how is the how is the market and definitely the media, you know, not grabbing on to this story and talking about it because it’s a huge opportunity for folks to get started.

And that’s what’s so shocking to me, too. I’ve had this conversation with my publicist. Why isn’t the media talking about this job? And he’s like, because it’s not big news. Toys R US is big news.

Kmart goes out of business.

Big news, Godiva closing everything on location is big news. But the private company now has one location that’s been in business for 20 years. Who cares? Media doesn’t care. It’s not big news for them. And so nobody’s really talking about this stuff. That’s why I wrote Exit Rich. That’s why I wanted to start the conversation.

That’s why I wanted to really help as many people as I can. You know, I’ve been on over to on a podcast in the last month or two so that I can get the message out there that so many businesses are failing. And these are the reasons are valid. I mean, small businesses, the backbone of our economy. There’s thirty point two million businesses in the United States employing over half the US workforce. If we lose small business in the United States, we lose jobs, we lose jobs, lose spending power.

You’re spending power. More businesses shut down. It’s a domino effect. You lose even more jobs.

So if we don’t get behind small business, help small business owners, help entrepreneurs, stay successful, build a sustainable business that’s scalable, that is sellable, one day you’re going to have more and more and more bankruptcies, I mean, over more bankruptcies and twenty nineteen even before the pandemic than in any other year.

Well, and that’s that’s always the the interesting thing, and of course, through the course of the pandemic, the world has been shaken up and and it’s hard for us to measure, you know, when the effects will be felt. But this is an, again, interesting that you brought up. Right. Like the bankruptcy said, ridden, but had risen to incredible levels, pre pandemic. So this was already in play.

And people don’t see that.

They just look and say, oh, well, of course, bankruptcy went up.

We’ve been in a global pandemic like, no, no.

This was the the writing was already on the wall.

Yeah. All these statistics have, according to you, is right before a pandemic is even more gloom and doom now. But I mean, you do have more and more businesses have started up in twenty, twenty than any year before.

And some of these startups are really doing well. And like I said, startups only have a 30 percent risk of going out of business. Now, the big difference between startups now and startups before the pandemic are a lot of these entrepreneurs are solving problems.

And they’re not just opening up another coffee shop on a block where you already got six coffee shops or another ice cream ice cream store on a street when you already got 10 other ice cream stores.

They’re actually solving problems or doing online, you know, open up e-commerce businesses, manufacturing, online businesses.

You know, they’re really solving problems. And that’s what entrepreneurship is all about. It’s not just about over another ice cream store and cannibalize in the marketplace. It’s about going out and figuring out what the problem is and then coming up with a solution. That’s what entrepreneurial ism is all about.

It if you look at today, you know, the the the the needs to build a start up and sort of the the capital impact of so different than than they were when, like a 10 year old business, even especially 20 year old business. Right. To to build a company today is, you know, an online process. And, you know, it’s you know, how exciting is it to like what we’ve got ahead of us right now, Michelle?

Like, you can just you can come up with an idea, you can build a business and you can be online before the day is done. Yeah, it’s so exciting because, you know, when I started, gosh, when an online bubble start, what year was that?

The first one. Right. The two thousand and one dotcom one.

Yeah. Yeah. Nowadays is so much easier to start a business. I was talking to a gentleman in Australia yesterday. I was actually on his podcast and he’s like, oh, it’s so easy to start a business. I think he’s got like one hundred online businesses and it really costs you nothing.

And you don’t necessarily have to have employees or assets or inventory. I mean, you can pretty much start an online business without investing too much and be really successful. Now, turning around and trying to sell that online business might be another thing. If you don’t have the solid infrastructure and you don’t have the business built on what I call the six PS, then you might not be able to maximize value. But anybody really. There’s not anybody. Let me not say anybody any you know, somebody who has that entrepreneurial spirit, really, it’s much easier now to start a business than it’s ever been before.

And I think, you know, again, the bottom line is look around us, figure there’s opportunity everywhere, you know? But unfortunately, there’s also people walking around like zombies that they’re not really, you know, conscious and not really looking at things and and thinking about things about what can I do, how can I solve this problem?

And some of the best entrepreneurs in the world are the ones who solve the biggest problems.

And entrepreneurship breeds entrepreneurship, like, you know, I have a coffee shop store, right leg, an online coffee company that I built on Shopify. So because you.

Yeah, because so because the people who built Shopify solved a problem that needed to be solved. And as a result, it allows me to solve a problem that needs to be solved. Right. And and like I somebody wrote a tweet the other day and it was it’s it was unfortunate the way that the response was. They said, look, you can start a business today for under 500 dollars like that. And it’s a wondrous time to be able to do this.

And a lot of people like replied back in a really negative sort of sense of like, this is not true. You know, I’m like and I I didn’t even want to get in the conversation like, no, I legitimately started a business for seventy dollars and it has immediately become profitable. So it’s and it is totally possible to do this stuff, which is why I’m excited. But I’m curious on your thought, Michelle. Where do we need to bring this, like, is this something that we’re missing in education, like in like getting people to recognize that this is a new way of building society and, like, opportunity?

Yeah, I want to address up to two ways. I’ve had many of these online companies come to me.

One was a coffee company and not yours.

And now they’re not for sale yet.

But the problem is with some of these online, a lot of these online businesses is they don’t have any infrastructure.

They don’t have any people, you know, and if you go to my six PS, which I think we should, that’s in my book and to educate your listeners, you know, the number one is people.

And this this coffee company and people that have subcontractors and they didn’t want to let their subcontractors, independent contractors, I’m sorry, independent contractors go along with the business because I want to keep those independent contractors for the next on line business.

So that’s a problem when you’re building a business, any business, whether it’s online sales, business, brick and mortar, you got to have an infrastructure if you don’t build it with an infrastructure. Number one, how sustainable are you really going to be? And can you scale? And more importantly, can you sell and maximize value?

Yes, maybe you can sell to somebody else who wants an online business and are going to work that business as their job. But you’re never really going to be able to maximize value because you don’t have people you don’t really have the infrastructure of what a business really operates upon. And so you’re really never going to maximize value. So all businesses SACE online, brick and mortar, all businesses need to really follow the infrastructure that I talk about in my book, Rich.

That, to answer your question is where do we educate these people?

I think it starts in school.

You know, it needs to start in school. I’m educating my daughter. You know that you want to make money. You don’t just go work for money. Let’s get creative. Let’s get entrepreneurial. That entrepreneurial spirit. What can you do? Well, you got all these toys sitting in the attic. Why don’t we box up those toys and sell them?

Yeah, we can sell them or, you know, we can donate them. But anyway, we really got to get our kids thinking about entrepreneurship early on. And I’m not sure if I’m answering your question, but, you know, I’m actually interviewing Indoctrinated Cobain later today. And he is president of Lazy Boy, I think Panera Bread Company and about a bunch of other companies. And he’s also president, my high point university. And the Virginia campaign has probably got one of the only schools that I feel really teaches entrepreneurship, has business, has classes where they teach you how to go out there and start a business by business.

You know, what business ownership, what business entrepreneurship is all about how to go out and solve problems. And I think it just starts as our kids are little to start teaching them. Kind of like Richard I bought out by Robert Kazuki, you know, just really teaching our kids to think differently. It’s all about really thinking differently.

Well, and even the the opportunity today, like you talked about before, like this is this is an incredible world that we can do things in a different way, even if we look at some of the sort of the even rich dad, poor dad as example, effectively needs a new addition because the world has adjusted. Right. There’s other folks that are, like we call it, the new rich writers. Yeah, it’s we didn’t hear there was no Bitcoin back there.

That’s right. Russia for Florida was right. And, you know, I’m so fortunate that Sharon Lechter, who coauthored which Jeb fought out with Robert Kiyosaki as my coauthor for my book, Exit Rich, because Sharon Lectors, a New York Times best selling author, five times from a shepherd, plus a CPA financial literacy expert and adviser to many different presidents.

And she teaches financial literacy as well. But, yeah, they need another version because there’s there was no online back then. Know there was no Bitcoin back then.

There there were there were not a lot of things. It’s so much easier now, I believe, to become an entrepreneur than ever before.

And even if we look at it like great books, like Built to Last, which were used as effectively like a tome of describing the potential for for taking on a blue ocean strategy in an opportunity. Well, if you look at almost every one of those stories effectively turned over and they’ve actually shed that portion of the business in order to survive. So that built to last wasn’t built to last because the world adjusted, you know, no offense to course, Jim Collins and the folks that did it, it was at a point in time, if you take the context, it was right.

But we have to adjust context to availability of the world today. Right. Right.

So let’s you talked about the the the peace, right, so having six method people is number one, if you don’t mind, Michel, let’s kind of brush through what the what the six message.

And I spent a little bit of time on people because this is where a lot of e commerce businesses, online companies, are getting it wrong. You know, and you got to you don’t look, you don’t build a business, you build people and people build a business. Right.

If you want a business that’s going to be sustainable, scalable and one day sellable, you do have to have the people in your organization. And a lot of online businesses have independent contractors, but they love their independent contractors, so they want to keep up its makeup. So the next new, you know, business that they’re building.

So you really have to have that people component. You always say that entrepreneurs. And that’s one reason, you know, that that coffee shop, they wanted a lot of money and the coffee business, not coffee shop, coffee business, they wanted a lot of money for it, but they had no solid infrastructure. And it’s only been in business for a few years. So there really wasn’t much history there. Does that make sense? Yeah, no.

We’re talking about how an exit, which is all about business as a sustainable business, as scalable so people is huge. You know, a lot of entrepreneurs, they want to do everything themselves. They want to control everything. And I always say you can’t grow unless you let go of the control. So entrepreneurs really need to focus on their strengths, how the weaknesses. But the biggest thing is put the right people in the right seats. And if you are building a business to sell and not just run your business to pocket as much money as you possibly can, then build that solid infrastructure and then the people you really need to ask the question who you know, who handles customer service, marketing, legal, accounting, manufacturing, distribution, environmental, etc.

. The list goes on and on.

The clue, Eric, is that you should never be next to the WHO because you really want to build the business without you. A lot of these online these online businesses, e-commerce businesses, they don’t have any people, right? They don’t. And that makes it very, very, very difficult. A harder to sell because the buyers who are going to pay the money that these e-commerce businesses want because they want a multiple of their EBITA, which is understandable, but but the buyers are not going to run that business.

So you have to have the people in place that been running the business are going to continue to run the business and you can’t just take your people with you and leave the business people because now you have no business. Does that make sense? Absolutely.

And it’s it’s I’m very close to this as I look at like, how do I build this for scale? And you can see how the trap is easy to fall into of like, look, I can just do more stuff and subcontract it out and I can hire people off up work. I can do whatever. Yeah, but that doesn’t build sustainability and it ultimately doesn’t build long term value in what like measurable, you know, sellable value even as measurable growth value.

It’s it’s it may look like it’s working because the graph seems to be going up into the right. But the moment you break the system, the moment you slow down or change. Everything can go in the wrong direction, right, and then let’s say you have independent contractors and subcontractors, Eric, and you’re paying them this, but then the buyer says, I really like the business. I like what you do, but we need to have employees.

Employees are going to cause this.

So that’s going to automatically subtract from Ebola, which is already differential taxes, depreciation and amortization. And that’s going to lower your sales price immediately because buyers pay a multiple of EBITA. So you really got I don’t care if it’s an online business. I don’t care what kind of business it is. You got to build the infrastructure, you know, and that’s why so many of these e-commerce businesses are not selling. Or if they are selling, we’re not selling for maximum value.

I could sell them for a lot more if I had a solid infrastructure in place.

That makes sense.

Absolutely now and this is a good lesson for folks, and I’m always amazed, too, when you look at the like you look at these different sized companies and different e-commerce businesses, you have to very much use that lens to look at how they grew to the point where they’re at today.

Because, you know, look, Facebook has grown with independent contractors and subcontractors actually giving Google has gone with independent contractors and subcontractors. You know, Facebook does have companies that they contract with that have the employees employ the employees, but they still have people, you know what I mean? And I still have a bunch of subcontractors and independent contractors that come and go. So any of these businesses you look at, they have a foundation, they have an infrastructure.

So people is number one.

Number two, because here’s the bottom line, too. If it’s just the owner, like in this coffee business that really was just the owner, they wanted to take everybody else with them, you know, and buyers and buyers don’t want a job. And so really, that really is a job. And many business owners, instead of creating a business, they’ve created a glorified job and wants to go to work at every day versus a business actually works for them.

So people’s number one product is number two.

So product is your industry, your product. It is your service. You have to ask, is my industry product service on the way up all the way out?

Meaning to. Do you have an Amazon at the prime of your game or do you have a blockbuster and you’re about to go bust? And so product is huge. You know, there’s a lot of industries that were dying before covid that are now crushing and vice versa, those industries before Kova that were killing it and dying.

So I always tell my clients to ask these three transformational questions during product because remember, 70 percent of businesses are going out of business, have to be in business 10 years because they stop innovating. In order to innovate under product, ask yourself these three questions from a one. What business are you in this in the 90s, is that some sense, what business, what we had and I said, what?

Booksellers will fulfill book orders. And then Amazon said, this is a question your own or your listeners, not your owners. Your listeners are asking, what is your core competency? What do we do really, really well, better than everybody else. What is there a USB or unique selling proposition? And Amazon said. We do fulfillment better than everybody else. So then the third obvious question is, what business should we be in? Should an Amazon said we need to be in a government business, not just for selling boats, were selling everything for everybody.

Now, Amazon is not really a huge, innovative company, are they? What have they made? What have they innovated?

It’s it’s there are things, but in effect, they’ve basically they just they took on processes that nobody else wanted to take on, processes that nobody else took took on. They figured out what they were really good at, which was fullfillment. They’re not out there making the widgets. They’re not manufacturing and widgets. They’re not creating, you know, the next the next best cell phone. They’re not out there creating.

They’re out there fulfilling what everybody else creates. Yes or no.

Right. Yeah.

You know, those transformational questions is really what transformed Amazon from a small bookseller to a multibillion dollar worldwide conglomerate that they are today. You know, my good friend Jeff Hoffman was standing in the airport line to try to to get his boarding pass so he could board his plane. This was decades ago. And he said he waited almost two hours to get to the agent to hand in this little, teeny thin piece of paper so he could get on the plane and just said, I just missed my plane, has handed me a piece of paper and Jeff went out and created the airport kiosk.

The kiosks approach your boarding passes so you don’t have to wait in line and miss your plane. That’s innovation. But as in the case of Amazon, you don’t always have to be the creator. You and now Amazon is the creative fulfillment, right, because they do it better than everybody else, but that’s what that’s what the essence is back in the 90s. What do we do so well is that we do that and that’s how they got so big.

So all business owners really should go back and ask themselves three questions. I don’t care what vertical you’re in, e-commerce businesses. You know, ask yourself, what business am I in, what I do really well, better than everybody else on my business, should we be? In some sense?

It does. It does. And then it’s interesting that they’re there. It always sounds simple, but it’s a very difficult, introspective thing for a business owner to do to really evaluate what’s the actual business where we’re in and what’s the thing that we can do. Right. And it really it really is. And a lot of times, Eric, you have to have an outsider’s perspective, because, like I said, when you’re in your fog, it’s foggy.

And a lot of business owners are transactional versus transformational. They’re are working in the business in the day to day, putting out fires constantly that they don’t really have time to sit there and think about what this is. I am what I do really, really well. And did you ever watch your movie, The Founder, based upon the McDonald’s?

Yes. Yeah, yeah. It was Michael. Michael Keaton was the star that we had. Really, really good. Good movie.

You remember when Michael Caine and Ray Kroc was in the bank trying to borrow money? Because he had already taken a mortgage out on his personal house, right?

He wasn’t making any money.

And it makes you like I’m like a legend. More money. He walks out and then a gentleman that followed him out of his name, he said, What business are you in?

And I said, I’m in the restaurant business right now. All right. What business are you? And he finally said, you need to be in the real estate business. You are not in the restaurant business, not in a hamburger business. You have to be in a real estate business. You have to buy the land, build the buildings, listen to the franchisees or franchisees are not compliant. You avoid our franchise agreement and you get another franchisee in there.

And then these franchisees are paying you rent. Those questions right there is what got Ray Kroc to have the leverage over the McDonald brothers to basically take the company away from them. But is the reason why McDonald’s is the largest holding company, real estate holding company in the world? So a lot of times you get a very a very valid point, Eric, is that. It’s hard for a business owner to have the infrastructure to do that themselves. You’ve got to have an outsider’s perspective like Ray Kroc that require would have never figure that out on his own.

And the interesting thing, too, and we look like let’s take the the greater story out of it, but like in general, so the like that business effectively was became what McDonald’s was, not what it was built from because they couldn’t answer those three questions. I don’t think like they they didn’t have the vision to do this bigger thing versus now, Ray, through this also third party help was able to really see what the future of the growing business is, which is and it’s funny, like brothers, the two brothers did not want to let go of the control and will never grow without letting go of the control.

The reason is that they tried to have multiple locations, but they wanted to control everything and then they all fell apart. So they’re like, OK, we’re just going to focus on our one restaurant, but you got to let go of the control. You got to get good people. You got to get good integrators. You go back to the people. You don’t build the business. You know, people may the business right. Got the right people.


I can’t do it all by himself. Right. So the therapy is processes, and I can still use a founder movie based to illustrate processes, you know, because back in the 50s, most business owners get this wrong. Most business owners design the processes around their own agenda, not around the customer experience.

MacDonald brothers back in the 1950s said, We want to build a fast food restaurant. We want our processes to be centered around, be designed with the customer experience in mind. So do you remember when when the McDonald brothers went out to the empty tennis courts? That’s right. Employees to talk through it all on a tennis court. How their employees moving around, bumping into each other. One of the McDonald brothers was on a ladder, really orchestrating how they move and kept redesigning it until they really had a symphony of systems and processes designed with the customer experience in mind.

The customer experience the McDonald’s brothers came up with, as we want our customers to experience great tasting food.

That’s hot, fast, 30 seconds or less. Even of those processes were designed back in the 50s and tweaked along the way, you can eat at a McDonald’s anywhere in the world and really get the same experience. Yeah, right.

Have you ever dealt with a company? We have to talk to three people, four people, 10 people to tell them the exact same story of your problem to try to get some resolve. Banks are notorious for this. Pharmacies, retail, social media companies are notorious for this, that they are not designing the processes with the customer experience in mind. They’re designing customers to alienate US and business. And here’s the bottom line, if you don’t create raving fans, then your competition will.

And you’re not going to create raving fans by having broken processes not designed with the customer experience in mind, so processes must be designed with the customer experience in mind and must be productive, efficient. And they must be well documented policy and procedure menus, McDonald’s can fire somebody on the front line and hire somebody within 30 minutes, have them working because they have S.O.P checklist is easy to follow, understand and implement. So you’ve got to have this policy procedure manuals as a checklist, employee handbooks, non competes, you know, all the documentation.

You never sell the business with all this documentation. Plus you need it to scale. You’ve got to have these processes to scale. So the fafi and this is the highest value driver, Eric, so businesses have it even under a million dollars? Well, typically sell for one the four times multiple. Probably one to three, more like it, just as well over a million dollars in EBITA, which could go for four or five and up. However, the more proprietary assets you have, so the fourth is proprietary, the more proprietary assets you have, synergies you have, the more we can sell your company for a get you a much higher value.

There’s six pillars to proprietary. No one is branding the mobile brand and your company as and what I can sell it for as long as your brand is relevant in the mind of the consumers. Is Blockbuster relevant in the mind of consumers is anybody can pay money for blockbuster brand. Now, because they went bust, raising them, their most valuable brand in the world is, do you know, the biggest brand, the most valuable brand in the world is?

That’s a good question. I mean, it’s funny, I’m looking at a Nike square in the back, there’s an example of someone that jumps to mind. But I mean, they’re not wearing a top 10, but they’re not the most valuable. Yeah. Oh, boy, we’ve mentioned it several times on the show today.

Oh, my, it would be our friends at Amazon.

Apple. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I look at a MacBook and an iPhone and they all surrounded by Apple devices. They’re actually such a part of it. I wouldn’t think of going outside, but it’s funny that is that is hugely a brand impact, right?

It is. I mean, the brand alone is worth two hundred fifty five billion dollars billion. That’s just a brand. That’s not the assets. Demitri Cash. Well, real estate receivables, that’s just the brand alone. So build your brand. And then the other thing is trademarks. Trademark your company name. You know, trademark your slogan, your trademarked exit, rich.

Yeah, you know, trademark your podcast.

But here’s the big mistake the business owners make when trademarking. They go and they get a trademark for the state that they’re setting up the business up there in California. They start a business in California and get a California trademark, but then they go to GoDaddy. They make sure they get that dotcom, but they never check the federal database to make sure that that name is available. Right. And I’ve seen clients in business for years and all of a sudden receive assistance, this letter, and they have to stop using that company name.

And, you know, I’ve seen clients hiring attorneys with lots of money and ended up losing. So go spend fifteen hundred to two thousand dollars and protect your proprietary stuff. You know, and even products are not just your name and slogans and what’s unique to you, even products and have clients. His business for selling the 50 to 60 million dollar range. They have 12 different products. Each one has a different federal trademark.

Each one is exclusive to Wal-Mart, exclusive to Target, exclusive to different retail chains. So TJX will pay more money when buyers are five different types of buyers. When buyers look at buying businesses, they look at synergies. What synergies? It’s going to catapult my current business to the next level. They’re buying synergise. Patents are huge, if you’ve ever watched Shark Tank, every single shark always ask. Get a patent on that, do you have a patent pending?

Do you have a utility patent? In fact, offers are contingent upon patterns of business for 18 million dollars. And that business was was not really making money, but they had 18 hands on drugs or another one. That’s really big manufacturing contracts, distribution contracts. There’s another thing about e-commerce business.

It’s online businesses.

They don’t have people. Some of them have processes, it’s iffy. Most of them never, ever have contracts like coffee cup I was selling at a manufacturing company, no contracts as somebody else making their coffee. No contract.

You know, you really need those contracts. So you have protection. And the buyer buying the business knows that this manufacturing relationship can continue on. This distribution company can continue on. Does that make sense?

Drugs are huge. You know, vendor contracts, distribution, manufacturing, any type of exclusive contracts. Franchise owners who have franchise contracts are really valuable. Client contracts are extremely valuable because buyers want to make sure that there’s revenue coming into the business, especially the contracts. And e-commerce businesses are good at this, getting a subscription model for reoccurring revenue. And when you have reoccurring revenue, I will pay a higher multiple for subscription models. Here’s a caveat to contracts.

I have never met a business owner in over 20 years that actually has the transferability language in their contract that says this contract is transferable to the new entity.

Oh, OK.

And about ninety nine and about ninety ninety nine percent of all sales in the United States are asset sales, not stock sales. And so if your buyer refuses to do a stock sell and your and your clients refuse to do consent to transfer, your job can fall apart. So you need to make sure you have that transferability language. The other thing is database’s Facebook page, 19 billion dollars for WhatsApp and WhatsApp was hemorrhaging.

Yeah, they were not they were not profitable on that.

They are not profitable. And they were hemorrhaging, but they had a billion users. So they had a synergy that Facebook wanted to buy. Facebook knew they can monetize in order. Why that investment?

Celebrity endorsements are big. You know, if you look at rooms to go, who’s a celebrity there, Cindy Crawford. Have you ever seen her in any of the furniture company? No. And then we have a client who’s got products endorsed by Oprah. Well, Oprah is like the queen of everything.

So strategics, who have some more products, will pay more money for that Oprah relationship because, you know, it’s all about relationship capital because they want to get their products in front of Oprah. Same thing with radio personalities like Glenn Beck. Know the cake product show.

Yeah, these these celebrities and radio personalities can only endorse one vertical at a time. Otherwise they lose credibility. Jennifer Aniston’s face is all over Aveeno. You don’t see her face on any other skincare line, right? And then e-commerce businesses back to my e-commerce businesses, when they have the top positions on Wayfair, it’s Etsy, Amazon, eBay, Monan that shoots up in price because as prime real estate, the strategics want to get their products and those placements.

That makes sense.

Yeah, the new real estate is placement on page and in research results now instead of just physical location in the town.

Absolutely. Probably even more valuable than physical location in the town. That’s where that’s where consumers are shifting to, because most consumers, you know, because of Amazon, whoever makes it easier for the consumer to do business is it companies is going to want Amazon wins because they make it so easy. But the pandemic has also changed the way consumers purchase products and services now. Wal-Mart and Target did not have a membership in a program where you can order online and to deliver groceries to your doorstep is because Amazon acquired Whole Foods and Whole Foods has that program.

You know, the interesting thing, too, and like you talked about the you know this, every business is now a global business in effect. And what we try to be like those these brands are are no longer like the reach is not limited, but nor is the they have to effectively go beyond their streetcorner. You know, it’s it’s almost a responsibility as a business to be able to go, yeah, there is no limit anymore where you can do business.

The limit is right here in your mind.

FFP, I’m sorry, go ahead.

Yeah, no, sorry, I just realized I, I wanted to double check because I know we talked about so we’re five peas in.

And first of all, like I say, Michel, this is incredible.

Like, this is if anybody hasn’t already started writing this down, number one, they’re going to buy the book. And if they don’t, I’ll buy the bloody book for them. They need to write a fantastic book.

But like you are, you are sharing a ton of really, really strong lessons here. And I want to thank you as we’re going through this, because it’s it’s it’s a rare treat to have somebody that can really be, as you know, informed and share as much, even though, you know, obviously there’s a lot more that’s in the book than just simply listing out what we’re talking about here.

Right. Thank you, Eric. And so the fifth is patrons, patrons is your customer base. And most businesses follow the 80 20 rule where 80 percent of their business comes from 20 percent of their clients.

And you’ve got to be very careful on customer concentration. What you really want is customer diversification and e-commerce businesses get in trouble doing this as well on. Coffee company Dow is talking about ninety nine point nine percent of all the sales came from Amazon. What happens if the relationship with Amazon fails? Then they just lost their entire business, so it’s not just, you know, customers that you have customer concentration and it’s also the marketing channel that you’re using. And if all of your sales are through Amazon now, I know there’s a lot of Amazon sellers out there that only sell on Amazon.

And that’s OK, but it’s risky when I looks at that they’re going to want to mitigate the risk because what happens if Amazon decides? Not to do business with you, right, or Amazon decides to get in the business you’re in and effectively evacuate that channel for you now. Right, exactly.

So you should always be diversified in your client base and how you get clients. So if you’re getting all your clients from Amazon, I’d be very careful. You need to have multiple concurrent resources like your own website, you know, like maybe Etsy or something else. You have to have sufficient resources course being in the grocery store, et cetera. So anyway, this is customer concentration we want. So I’ll just give you a quick case study.

We had a business or manufacturing business we were selling that has 70 percent, 60, 47 percent of the revenue tied up in the BP contract. We appraise this company for nine point eight million.

We had over five hundred and fifty buyers.

We narrowed it down to 12, Alawi’s a lot of intense. Every single letter of intent had a condition in there that if you lose BP, then we’re not paying you. This isn’t this and that’s because we’re going to mitigate the risk.


However, we found a strategic that very similar products and services in a strategic. Didn’t care about the risk because the reward for them was far. Greater on the upside, because they’ve been trying to get their products and services into BP for decades and never could get their feet in Utah, it’s like, oh, this is perfect. We’re in there with this company we just acquired. Now we can get our other products and services in there.

Does that make sense?

Yeah, they were willing to pay 15 million for a company that was a price for nine point eight. Fifty million for 70 percent of the business, which is one hundred and twenty six percent more than that price price for the company for 70 percent. So we can sell a business with customer concentration. It just makes it much more difficult. We have to find a buyer of a needle in a haystack type of situation.

Yeah, that was a real unexpected value, but it’s an important one. It’s it’s hard to match those. But and also as well, like you talked about before, like the the outside view in is the only way in which they will discover that, because if they are simply looking at their own internal channel, that’s all they can be focused on. How do they possibly seek out a buyer who’s looking for a bidirectional access to the channel and sees a greater value than they even realize they’ve got?

So that’s and sometimes it doesn’t always work out. I think we had we had a media marketing company that were selling 10, 15 million range. They have five clients are only five, and they’re in the process. They lost two of the five. And the reason they have five is because of were casinos that cater to casinos and in marketing for the casinos.

It was so such a risky business because casinos will do the math. They bring on a new, you know, a new agent that makes the decisions and they will do the math and say, oh, we can do this in-house cheaper. And the marketing company. So they lost two clients out of the five. The revenues dropped in half or even have dropped in and they were no longer sellable. I ended up having to merge with another media and advertising marketing company.

So it doesn’t always work. How do you want to make sure you have customer diversification? And then the last piece, the most important thing, all entrepreneurs is profits. And I was like, Michelle, where do you put this last? The reason for profits last is because of that lack of profits is never the problem. Lack of profits is never the problem if you’re not making money. Lack of profits is not the problem.

It’s a symptom.

And the operating on one of the other types of clients that come the mail is that much of a profit problem. I’m like, no, you have a people problem or no, you have a process problem. You don’t have lack of profits is not a problem. It’s a symptom.

If you are running your business on all five PS, I can promise you you’re going to make money.

What’s that was a great example of never far from profit, they were as far from profit as you can get while still be considered in a business worth buying. But they had of the other five fees and majority of what was needed to bring value to their buyer. Right. That’s incredible.

That’s the sixth phrase. That’s your infrastructure. And you can see there’s infrastructure on the six fees. I can work for e-commerce businesses, right? Yeah.

Yeah. When it’s and it’s amazing. Like you said, it’s these practices apply to brick and mortar. They apply to e-commerce. They apply to locals to global site there.

It’s that’s right.

The methods play out and the importance is you have to just look at the overall methodology and make sure it all comes together. So like with that, I know, Michelle, we we’re coming up to time. And this has been fantastic. So Exit Rich is I highly recommend people people need to get this. If you’re at all involved in business, even if you’re not thinking today that you’re building towards exit, we have to understand we all are right.

The viability and sustainability is maybe your exit, maybe it’s your own personal exit. Are you creating something that’s sustainable to be worthwhile to the next person that’s going to take it over? Even if it’s not necessarily a sale, it could be the next CEO.

So we’ll have links to get get the book and Eric and I tell everybody the value that they get paid by the state.

Absolutely. That would be fantastic. Yeah.

And I’m sure your listeners want to hear about the extra gold nuggets, extra value we’re offering.

I like this even better.

So it’s so Rich launches in June towards the end of June. And Steve Forbes has endorsed the red state as a gold mine for entrepreneurs, as most entrepreneurs live way too much money on the table when they’re selling their business. Kevin Harington original Shark on Shark Tank wrote the foreword lectures my coauthor. So you don’t have to wait till June to read exit rate. You can go to exit. Which book?

Dotcom now for twenty four dollars and seventy nine cents, which is less than Amazon.

We will email you to digital download so you can start reading today. We will send the hardcover to your doorstep to anybody in the United States for no additional shipping cost.

We will give you a lifetime membership into the book club where there’s video content and made doing transformational questions and talking about strategies and techniques and doing deep dives in all these different things that I teach over the last 20 years, plus documents, documents to run a business necessary business. We have simple employee handbooks, not Kupets or charge licensing procedure manuals. We also have sample letter of intent. Purchase agreements, due diligence, checklist, closing documents, all of these are there not just for review, but you can download the templates and start using them.

If you want your attorney to try to recreate all these documents would cost you over thirty thousand dollars and all available to you just for buying the book at twenty four dollars and 79 cents.

Plus, we’ll give you a 30 day membership into Club CLS, which is an entrepreneur mastermind that we started to really help business owners build that sustainable, scalable and when already sellable business so they too can get rich. And that’s an rich book.

Dotcom, if there’s if you if you got twenty four, seventy nine to spend, which everybody does, then go, go there.

Yeah. Because if you’re going to McDonald’s save you save the burgers by the book.

Save the Quarter Pounder with cheese.

I can probably say I was lucky enough and thank you to your team actually sent a preview and I read it. It’s fantastically written, beautiful lessons. Like you said, you and Sharon did a great job and coauthoring this and like the book alone, well worth the value that that’s attached on that cover price. But the fact that you go far beyond it with what you’re giving and sharing, I really appreciate it. So, yeah, definitely folks do do go there and get the rich book.

This is this is a must have. And like I said, it’s it’s a manual that everybody doesn’t even realize they need until they start to read it. And don’t don’t wait until you’re looking to sell before you start to try and look backwards at what you needed to do along the way. It’s it’s like a manual for success.

So thank you for for bringing this to market.

Thank you. Thank you for having me. Eric has been an absolute pleasure. My main website, if anybody wants to contact me, Michell at SeilerTucker.com and then https://ExitRichBook.com.

Excellent. Yeah, I’ll make sure I got links to the show, notes. Michelle Seiler-Tucker, this has been an absolute pleasure and thank you so much. I appreciate it. And I wish you all the best. With the official launch in June. I’m looking forward to my hard copy cover arriving at my doorstep so I can put it on the bookshelf, but I’ll read it from end to end in the meantime anyways in advance, because it’s it’s an absolute must read for sure.

Thanks very much.

Thank you, Eric. It’s been a pleasure.

Sponsored by the 4-Step Guide to Delivering Extraordinary Software Demos that Win Deals - Click here and because we had such good response we have opened it up to make the eBook, Audiobook, and online course, more accessible by offering it all for only 5$

Sponsored by our friends at Veeam Software! Make sure to click here and get the latest and greatest data protection platform for everything from containers to your cloud!

Sponsored by Diabolical Coffee. Devilishly good coffee and diabolically awesome clothing

Dave Russell is VP of Enterprise Strategy at Veeam Software.

Russell has almost three decades of experience and most recently held the role of Vice President and Distinguished Analyst at Gartner. His research focus was on storage strategies and technologies, with an emphasis on backup/recovery, snapshot and replication, SSD/flash optimization software, software-defined storage, and storage management.

We unpack some very interesting data from the Data Protection Report that will be eye-opening for some and good confirmation of position for others in the IT organization. 

Here’s the link to the DPR: https://go.veeam.com/wp-data-protection-trends-2021.html
And with the Exec.Brief: https://go.veeam.com/data-protection-trends-executive-brief

Connect with Dave on Twitter here: https://twitter.com/BackupDave 

Sponsored by the 4-Step Guide to Delivering Extraordinary Software Demos that Win Deals - Click here and because we had such good response we have opened it up to make the eBook, Audiobook, and online course, more accessible by offering it all for only 5$

Sponsored by our friends at Veeam Software! Make sure to click here and get the latest and greatest data protection platform for everything from containers to your cloud!

Sponsored by Diabolical Coffee. Devilishly good coffee and diabolically awesome clothing

Jeff Coyle is the Co-founder and Chief Product Officer at MarketMuse. MarketMuse is the industry-leading technology and methodology for content planning and evaluation via semantic relevance. It combines advanced AI, natural language processing and machine learning algorithms to produce actionable insights for inbound marketers.

Jeff shares great insights into how we got to today’s way that SEO (Search Engine Optimization) and SEM (Search Engine Marketing) work and how to unlock the machine that will get you team (or yourself) rethinking how to get found, and create great content.

We talk about techniques, tools, and really have fun with how you can approach SEO and content as an individual or a business. 

Check out MarketMuse at https://marketmuse.com 

Connect with Jeff on LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeffcoyle/ 

TRANSCRIPT – Powered by HappyScribe

All right. Let’s get to the fun stuff. This is Jeff Coyle. He’s the co-founder and chief product officer at MarketMuse. And they’ve got some really, really amazing stuff to do. And so if you’re looking at leveraging insights for making sure that you can get better access to the world, better marketing, better search engine optimization and creating content, this is literally a complete change in the way you run websites. I actually use the platform super cool.

You’re going to want to check it out. So please do enjoy this. This is Jeff Coyle from MarketMuse.

I’m Jeff Coyle, the co-founder and chief strategy officer for MarketMuse, and this is the DiscoPosse podcast.

Fantastic. All right, so Jeff, I. I lit up like a Christmas tree when I saw your name, crossed my my guest list and I was really, really happy. I’ve been. I’ve been probably crossing paths with you through various means over the course of a couple of decades at this point, both as a reader of your content, as a contributor to areas where you’ve been in and now as a consumer of of stuff that’s in the space that market uses is tackling.

So boy, oh, boy, I’m excited about the chance to chat today. So thanks very much for joining us.

Yeah, it’s a pleasure. And I’m really looking forward to the discussion. We have so many cross paths crossed over the last two decades. I mean, I’ve been now doing this for May 1st. I think it’s twenty two years. So it’s kind of scary. And and yeah, we were just catching up before the Top End and you said, yeah, there’s a couple of things that we’re just striking.

So, yeah. So for folks that are new to you, I want to get you if you want to give a bit of a quick bio here. And also, Jeff, where folks, if they want to connect online, will remind them at the end, of course. But where where they can reach out if they wanted to chat further on what we’re going to talk about.

Yeah, sure. So first things first on the contact side, Jeffrey, underscore Coile on on Twitter, that very active on LinkedIn, Jeff at Market News.com, that’s MRK at Mmusi dot com. I respond to everything. And we also also have a slack community called the Content Strategy Collective. And if you’re looking for over fifteen hundred content strategists, both technical and content focused search engine optimization professionals, conversion rate optimization professionals in there, just doing it every day.

So if you want to invite for that private group and I can include a shortened length for you, you you put on your show notes.

Nice. That’s great. The I love the name right out of the gates like that. This is something that I’ve. I’ll say I I fought against a lot of what we’re going to talk about because I’m like the worst person to be transformed, and yet I’m in the business of transforming how people do things. It’s such a bizarre dichotomy of right for humans for the longest time, even when it comes to CEO and things that we do like I’ve often when I first came to my company, I was hired as an evangelist.

And so they said, like, you’re going to create content. I’m already writing blogs. I was writing post.com. I was doing all sorts of stuff. And they said we we need to do some SEO. And on on the blogs you write and I and I, I was resistant early and I said, I am the CEO. Like, I’m writing about stuff that I’m specifically solving. It’s not not necessarily meant to gather views. It’s actually meant to solve a bloody problem.

So I was a bit sort of I was that adversarial teko that just didn’t want to give in to the fact that Google doesn’t find me as attractive as my peer group does and if I don’t want to do, is really weird at first.

But that’s that that is I mean, you asked me for my bio. That story is basically my bio. And so, I mean, just a quick run down. Like I mentioned, I’ve been in the space for ninety nine, two thousand. I went to Georgia Tech for computer science usability theory. I was designing ad servers and early search engines like text search. During that time, I started at a company called Knowledge Storm. We’re based in Alpharetta, Georgia, which you’re very familiar with.

And I lived in Atlanta until only about five years ago. I now live in coastal Georgia, South SSN and on an island off the coast of Georgia, which is pretty awesome. And I worked at a company called Knowledge Store for seven years. And we were the first people really getting to be tech companies to buy in. That content can turn into leads. As shocking as sounds, content can lead to lead. And so we were getting like IBM to syndicate their white papers.

We were getting companies that had white paper brochure where to actually get them online to get product descriptions online. And, you know, it was before there was even content marketing departments at these major, major entities. And it was it was an amazing time. Right. And we were generating millions of literally millions of leads per month and selling them one to one. We were acquired by Tech Target in twenty seven where I stayed on as their in-house. So I guess if I stayed on for almost eight years as their in-house guru, that team dramatically when I was there, grew that network amazingly.

I mean, we more than quintupled the traffic across all the two hundred plus sites that they have under management. But the the story you told is the story. So when I was that knowledge storm, I didn’t have editors, I didn’t have writers. I was syndicated on content and we were doing some abstract abstract writing and things like that. But then at Target, over two hundred great subject matter experts on staff, a thousand content contributors, I think we even talked about.

I think you have a credit or two as a as a as a contributor to the to there. And what I learned really quickly was that I had a lot of the knowledge of what needed to be done and the strategic side and the product side. But getting my data into people like yours hands is harder than it seems because it’s that adversarial. Don’t tell me what to do. I’m the subject matter expert and that’s why what I’ll talk about now is it’s the golden age for that situation, because no one is more valuable right now than great writers that are subject matter experts.

But basically my journey at Target was here’s a list of words. Go do this. Shut up. Go back into your hole. OK, I’m going to try a different version. I’m going to try a different way of saying this. Then here are some more data that supports it. I’m still a little bit hesitant to getting to these manual processes that were they were painful. I mean, it would take me thirty hours to do one to build one topic model that would pass muster with an editorial lead that basically said if we were if we’re experts and we cover this topic comprehensively, here’s the stuff we need to cover.

That was my manual approach based. Right. It would take 30 hours and all the content inventories, one per year per site be right. And an audit. And then no one even agreed on the findings at the end because that’s subjectivity. And so I had this vision that all of these manual processes could be automated or semi automated. The research process, the prioritization, what should I create? What should I update? And then building content brief.

That could get me as the strategist and the writer or the editor on the same page, right. Here’s what’s expected. Here’s the meet’s minimum. You go nuts, cover all the stuff that makes you an expert on this. But here’s kind of the guardrails. And, wow, that was the marker. Right? And so I met my co-founder on the tail end of being a target, and he was starting to automate some of these things with artificial intelligence.

The first time I used it right, it my brain kind of exploded and I was like, oh, my gosh, this actually works this 30 hour process. You’ve got this down to four minutes. Right? And it was like and I quintupled a section of a site in and against a 20 post versus 20 post comparable. And it was five X performance performance and I was like, oh, gosh. So then I left and to go become co-founder and Marconi’s and is a little bit of a gap there.

But but the the story was this was the first kind of payload that I thought could be turned into information that writers would get excited about, because it really amplifies your subject matter expertize and it blocks against blind spots because you don’t know everything. Right. You know a lot. And so the story in 2008 was I’m talking to an editor and he’s like, what do you know about AM FM hard drives? Just you weren’t even born yet. When I’m like, I’m kind of old, but I’m not that old.

And he’s like, yo, I’ve been writing about this sense since the disks were this big, you know, and stuff like that and and so to. OK, cool man. Here’s a content plan that was built using technology. Your your pages are great, the pages Ukraine is great. Here’s four other articles that you could have written that would have supported your first piece. And here’s the structures of those pages that would tell the story that we truly are the experts.

And the light bulb went off. And that’s what we now do with three thousand plus companies, is have those types of discussions, it’s like and it’s everyone from and we have companies that pay half a million dollars a year to work with us. We have people that pay seventy nine dollars a month. We have solutions that go all the way up and down the pool, whether it’s a large publisher, a large B2B tech company or a solo partner who’s just trying to update five blog posts a month.

And there’s so many different workflows, which I know we’ll get into that we’ve tackled. But everything from what should I create, what should I update? How do I do internal linking where my blind spots how do I improve this page? Should I write something or just update all the questions? We answer them with our solution. And it’s like I, I’ve never been more excited with the product than I am today. I always joke around. It’s like, well, it does everything that I’ve always kind of said that it did finally is a magical feeling when that occurs.

But it’s. What I always find amazing, too, is like the stories of fantastic startups that are successful are always born of somebody that has a distinct and directly experienced problem, and they bring the beauty of anecdotal experience, the human experience and an understanding of technology in order to bring these things together and solve a problem that you’ve got, that you know, others have and then ultimately then market to other people who have the same problem. And it was funny when I talked about, like, my arrogance as a blogger, you know, which is just this an unfortunate thing that we we get hung up on early because we’re lucky more than we’re right.

That the algorithm generally found us and I mean like in the general blogger ecosystem, like it’s I can go carpet a bunch of content and it’ll probably get picked up. You put it in on social. But if I actually went back and really evaluated what I was doing, I was dabbling in syndication, dabbling in amplification, dabbling in the way that I wrote, and then what I did was actually I started at my company that that I taught. I teach my ex how to write.

Mm hmm. And just purely as like this is what has worked for me. And and so I said, let me just try this out. And I said it’s it’s actually formulaic. And this is when it clicked for me, because I would tell people like, it’s pretty simple. So the other day I had this problem and I realized that I was really going to get hung up on it. And so I wanted to get rid of this.

So let’s see exactly how I solved it. Now, as an industry, we faced this problem all the time. Let’s jump into why it’s a problem headline. OK, and and I and I went through and it’s like headline subheadings and I and I explained it. It’s stupidly formulaic how this thing works, but it’s storytelling.

You’re a storyteller. I was just about to say you’re in and I know I mean, I and I love storytelling. I listen to storytelling podcasts constantly. All of my favorite ones are, you know, I can go through a list. But what you really what you just described is storytelling. It’s the skill no one has and in this space. And that’s why you’re shooting and you’re shooting and rolling dice every time you pick an article. Right.

So what I then started to accept was like, well, what if I and this is where it really hit? I said, what if you gave me the subject first? And then I built the story towards it right in. And then I started to work with other folks and then I started looking in the ecosystem. I’m like, look, there’s a there’s a technology way to solve this problem. And my wife does stuff. She is affiliate marketing sites.

She’s got her own blog and she use these practices to take her own blog from like X thousand per month to tripling the the way that the inbound traffic by doing just what you talked about of like optimize stuff in line, check keywords. But the problem was it’s like you feel like the person with the NASA, like you got like eight monitors around you, you got papers, you got notes, you got sticky notes on your forehead, like you’re doing everything just to try and figure out like it works.

But holy heck, that’s a lot of process to wrap around it. Yeah. And then started to dabble into the product side and it didn’t take long before Market Muse shows up in the old search list because you’re like, oh dang, this thing, this is kind of what it is. That’s why. I’ll say every blogger, every content creator. You got to look at you’re already doing this stuff. Let’s let’s do better stuff and like, you know, then also tell you and I thought this is way more of me talking than nobody wants to hear, but I’ll give you this other funny story that made me just angry, like I was filled with this strange, bizarre rage, because I said, what if I just wrote one of these goofy BuzzFeed style articles just to see if it works?

And so I did. And so I wrote this article and I called it twenty three things that only 90 sysadmins would remember. And it was just like token ring control, it’s just a goofy sort of listicle and I put it out there and I put it on Hacker News and it had 15000 views. The date the first day I launched it. And I almost wanted to shut my blog down and go home like, oh, this is what I’m up against.

I just got I got beat to death by my own listicle and like but then again, it just lit up inside me. That’s not bad. Let’s exploit it. Like, let’s land somewhere in the middle. Between the BuzzFeed list goes, God bless the Bloods. I don’t mean to pick on them, but it’s like, you know, I between that and Outbrain, I make fun of them all the time of like like twenty three things like here’s the list, the system administration task that no security man wants to know, you know, like all these weird things show the abs secret that his trainer hates.


So content content is king. But it’s only given the thrown on the backs of CEO and process and search ability and discoverability. So let’s let’s talk about how that thing works, because people don’t know it’s a bit of a black art, but it’s that it’s it’s actually that you’re right. They both need to exist. The doing it without expertize doing it without the really real knowledge is super hard. It’s like tying your hands together and you’ve got to untie them before you even start working.

And so that you always have that advantage if you know, you always have advantage, if you have the nuanced view of these concepts when you are starting your content process. But the the biggest gap really is not knowing how much needs to be built. Right. And how much existing authority you have. It’s not how hard is it to perform for these topics. It’s how hard will it be for you? So you can go write that article, that amazing article.

And when you put it on your blog, it will do well. Let’s just say the whether it’s a listicle or not. Right. But if you go put that on a brand new blog, that’s first page. It won’t. And then knowing why that authoritativeness and how that works at the topic level, at the site, site, section subdomain, whatever the case may be level, that’s the that’s the truth. And so what we’ve done is we’ve identified how to measure that in a reasonable way to predict outcomes.

And the easiest way to do it, I call it content efficiency, is how many articles did you write or how many update motions, whether it’s an expansion or an optimization motion or just an update for currency. How many of those motions did you take last quarter? Let’s just say let’s like Q1. How many of those pages were successful? The average on that for recurring value, unfortunately, everybody will gasp is about 10 percent, it’s about 10 percent.

That means every 10 articles you write, only one of them is successful. It doesn’t have to be that way. We work with teams to get that number up to 40, 50 percent. Right. So they’re purposefully updating. And so that gives them the ability to get more budget, gives them the ability to actually have more predictive outcomes to say, oh, wow, I actually do have to write more or I can I can just go update a page and that’s enough for me to win on this topic.

But this other one, I need more foundational building so we can go anywhere in between on that and then get you to the last mile and execute. So like, literally we’re writing about token ring control. Well, if you’re an expert on token ring control, well, you would probably mention know protocols, write these four protocols in that content. And if you don’t, you’re not an expert. Right. I always use the example of if you were writing articles about content marketing strategy and you don’t mention target audiences or buyer personas, you’re not actually an expert.

You may be Nescio, but you’re not an expert. And so our technology will tell you what it means to be an expert on the topic, what are the concepts that need to be included. And it’s not a sort of descending search volume game, which is unfortunately what people do that fail over time. They’re just looking at chasing things that don’t matter, data points that don’t matter when it’s really about. How similar is what I’m building to that which a subject matter expert would build or how much better it is?

You don’t have to publish content that’s not as good as any one, any of your competitors. Every time you can publish content that’s better than them, every time you can publish content predictively and know what’s going to be successful with greater than 80 percent, 90 percent predictability. How much does that unlock? It makes people actually want to work. It makes people actually care about this stuff. So they’re not just throwing dice, because if you are estimating traffic using, say, search volume.

Right. Or you’re estimating how much traffic you’re going to get, go back to all the last five times you did that and see how accurate your predictions were. I can guarantee you were less than 50 percent accurate. You might as well flip a coin that I mean, and that’s that’s been in the market like that’s been the thing that people like stick to in the market for so long. They use Google AdWords, keyword planner, and that’s it.

And it’s like you aren’t predicting accurately if you’re not predict accurately, how useful is that?

And that you’ll be as lucky as if you if you just take a chicken and put it on top of a checkerboard filled with keywords.

So true. I mean, it just it just feels good, right? So that’s the thing that I have a post on on market music says why using term frequency or search volume is an illusion. And one is it makes you feel good if it makes you feel like you’re using data away. An expert would, but it’s it’s not actually providing any real value. It’s a directional value, like it’ll keep you from driving off the cliff. Right. But it’s not making you a race car driver, right?

Yeah. That’s literally whether there’s other solutions that basically just keep you from driving off the cliff. And I’m like, I want you to be a race car driver. Not I’m not just trying to keep it so you don’t know that.

So, yeah. And like I say, this is the thing of it. It’s the difference between being lucky and being effective. And you can be lucky. And as as if you’re a consistent content creator, you get more lucky than most people because you’re just creating enough content that you will get, you know, hey, look, you’ll you’ll be a great bench, not even a benchwarmer. You’ll be a great journeyman hitter. You know, you’ll have an average like a a good baseball player that will make a good living.

But do you want to do that or you want to be Barry Bonds? Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. And you’ve nailed it. That is such a great analogy. I’m totally stealing it because. Yeah, you can’t by being an expert who knows your craft and writes prolifically, you can be you can be a twenty two hitter and you are probably good in the field. So you’ve got a starting job, you know, but you will not get to that elite zone. And especially given today’s competitive landscape, I mean, you’ve got to know your competitors.

Some of them can get away with murder because they’re on the highest end of authority and they are doing things you can’t do. And unless you know that they always say, don’t copy your idols, right. Don’t copy your idols in content right now, you will die a slow or super fast death. And that’s I always joke around about that because because like the major large enterprise publishers or tech companies, they get a pass on a lot of the stuff that you have to do.

And you look at them and you’re like, oh, well, they did that. I’m smarter than them, so I’ll just do it too. No, no, no. Doesn’t work that way. So if you if you’re the advice you’re getting is look at the number one ranking page and go do a better job than them. It’s hogwash. Doesn’t work in practice. You might as well again roll dice, but this time you’re rolling dice where if you roll a one or two you’re dying instead of just not writing a successful article if you’re copying.


So and this is the the the sort of interesting problem that people don’t get to is that creating bad content. Is actually punitive, like I didn’t even know this until recently, they and so, like much too much content can actually cause you to get ranked because it looks like people still always. And so it will it will affect other things on the study.

And overall, you know the way to think about it, right? Yeah. So it can be it can be just. The cost of bad content, there’s a lot of cost, and that’s why when I was asked somebody, I know how uphill my climb is going to be, so how much does their content cost per page? And if their number is about one hundred two hundred three hundred bucks. Right. They aren’t thinking about the true cost of unsuccessful content.

So let’s just use the efficiency number. Right. Let’s say you pay an outsourced firm, one hundred fifty bucks per page that you write. Let’s say only one out of 10 of those articles are successful. OK, right there. It’s fifteen hundred bucks for a page of successful content because we’re already 10 next. All right. And now let’s say you have the you had the ability, if you had invested that money wisely, to have knocked out four instead of one article that’s successful.

How much upside value would that have led to? Let’s say, you know, your value, you your R.P.M. revenue per thousand page views, you know your lead value. Well, the opportunity cost of bad content is ten times that. So the real cost of bad content is, you know, ten thousand dollars per page, OK? And no one’s doing that math they’re doing. Oh, well, I can go get a draft written on X, Y, Z Writing Network for one hundred bucks.

Oh, you’re not counting your time. Review time. Update time. That’s the easy way to calculate the true cost of content. But the other two metrics, unsuccessful content and now opportunity cost. You could have written the best article on the topic you should be writing on to move the needle the most in that time frame. But instead you wrote these ten mediocre articles for one hundred fifty bucks a pop and then you sat down, goes, why did only one of those work?

That’s the real math that I tried to evangelize, talking about being an evangelist. That’s the thing that I’m trying to get people to think through is the ten articles they wrote last month didn’t do well. Why? They’re probably OK. They’re probably good, but they weren’t strategic. Right. And why? You know, I’ve got to answer the why I’m in the why is if I can if I can tell you the lie, the next time you’ll put out five articles that crush it, then you’re like, whoa, I have underestimated the true cost of bad content.

Then on the negative side of you, building mass quantity of low quality or thin content, the negative impacts can be significant. And I’m not so much like a penalty. It’s just if you are not consistently authoritative on a topic on that section of the site at which you’re publishing, one out of ten is good, two out of twenty or good, you don’t you’re not going to gather that power. And that is something that no one can measure except us.

And that’s so we can actually show you that breadth, the depth, the quality, the comprehensiveness. How consistently do you generate momentum on these topics? Right. And those metrics that’s our proprietary are the closest thing to predictability of outcomes. And if you’re not thinking about that or your publishing in mass, you better be. A three letter publisher or better be like Amazon or someone like that to get away with that because you’re not going to get away with it on your blog.

It will catch you. It may not catch you today. I always joke around that there’s there’s things you can do to manipulate your on page to free stuff. And you’ll go like this very soon. And then you’re on the top of the wave. You’re like, this is great. This is great. I’ve manipulated I’ve fooled the system crash. And that only works if you’re an affiliate and you can just go throw away that site and start something new.

That one down and start again.

If you’re a business, it doesn’t work. So you do not want to wipe out with your entire business because you won’t have a job if you’re a founder, but your company won’t have a source of traffic. But if you work for a business and you’re advocating short term risky content tricks that are being taught by affiliate marketers, yet you’re in trouble. I mean, and I see it I mean, we we have people that cry on our proverbial, you know, covid shoulders, which means over you.

They come all the time. They come in there like I was listening to X, Y, Z or X, Y, Z, and this is how they said to do it. So I did it. And we launched two hundred articles last quarter. Why did we all of a sudden crash? And I’m like, I think we got I think we got caught up in this Google you how many times I hear that. But I got penalized by Google.

I’m like, look in the mirror, you know, penalized by yourself. And you got penalized by listening to advice from someone who could just pick up their stuff and go to another site. And you couldn’t. That’s the reality, they don’t care if those sites don’t have long term value, they’re like it’s like the aggro you’re hitting the, you know, your drag race like you’re actually right and you know, lemons.

Yeah. This is the so there’s a neat merger of these things. And I I’ve become acutely aware of all of them, you know, because I’ve like any good nerdy technologists, I have more side gigs than than a main gig. But it’s it’s in dabbling with that. I’ve learned the hard way on some of these things. Like you said, even though I got a I’m like, let’s try affiliate. So I Lilya found a domain. I used to do this all the time.

I, I own a disturbing amount of domain. So by maybe I need to go. I see a domain, I like the and the guy that goes through it looks for like high traffic about to expire meaning neat name, pick it up for two bucks, you know, for seven bucks. It costs me four more for the transaction than does for the domain. And I look and then I say, OK, what inbound is this getting? I create a couple of articles.

So I did this one right. I was like, OK, this is an area where I’m doing stuff. I packed up some affiliate stuff and it works. I got some traffic for a while and then I did exactly what you just said and I let it slide and now it I just buried any domain authority that that working domain had because I didn’t keep throwing content at it and I knew I was I kind of knew I was doing it. So I I’m a bad person because my wife was disappointed and she’s like, you know, I you I told you what to do to fix this thing.

And, you know, I didn’t keep going on it. But the the neat thing was in doing that, I’ve got I have a coffee site, you know, and as you can see by the my diabolical coffee, you know, and I, I said, OK, I’ve done this thing. I know the market is good for this. And so I’ve actually and it’s worked like I soon as I launch it, I’ve actually got people buying stuff which is fantastic.

But the first thing I think is like, I’m not going to make this mistake now. I’m actually going to aggressively market towards it, you know, do the right things consistently. And this is, you know, again, like I said, and then all of a sudden here I am. I look through my guest list and I see Mark using like, all right, this is the good stuff because. We need help. We all need help on this stuff, and we.

It takes a long time to convince people, and so this is the only thing software’s particularly good at a lot of things. I’m in the business of convincing people to use software instead of themselves. And it’s a tough battle because we are we’re a weird bunch as humans. So, Jeff, what’s the like? What are we kind of talked a bit about some of the objections and some of the challenges that you have. Like when when does it kick in for people that they say?

Right, I’m not even you’re right that that’s right, this thing is working, and now they make it central to the system more than trying to fit it in.

Yeah, I think that there’s a couple of workflows where I think it really creates that that aha moment. And it depends on who they what their role is. But from a writer perspective, it’s the first time you’re able to get advice to, for example, on something that you really know. And you get advice that you would have forgotten it. What I’ll say is the most mature workflow that we service is that updating content or checking to see if it’s comprehensive.

Five years ago, totally immature and everybody was, like, violently opposed to it. But then you had things like grandma, really. Then you had things like Hemingway. And people are getting used to getting adjustments while they write and getting the feedback. Now, where this subject matter expert checker effectively, are you an expert and is are you exhibiting that expertize so that feeling that this is oh, it’s just another grandmotherly like piece of feedback. I can actually scan my page and see where I’ve got a nice healthy topic.

Coverage or fluff. Oh, this paragraph’s complete fluff. Maybe I don’t need it. Right. And then you go up one level, the first time you’re able to do a competitive analysis, a head to head gap analysis and say, all right, Eriks, the smartest person in the world about Tolkan rings. And I looked at his article, but I didn’t just read it and try to emulate his narrative. I actually could X-ray it and say, here’s the concepts that Eric included.

He talked about these things. I need to make sure that I at least talk about those things in my own tone, voice and structure. And then the third is where I actually look at everyone, all in one view and say, what’s the meet’s minimum? What’s the table stakes for this topic? I have to cover these things. What are the things that are on my intent? Like when I say intention’s, someone is searching for a thing.

I’m answering that. I’m giving you that need. So what is that thing on intent? What are the other intents that I need to consider? Maybe not for this page, but for this cluster of content? Once you start to get that feedback and it takes a minute or two minutes and it would have taken 20 hours as a writer, you’re like, oh, wow, why would I ever do this manually? I mean, that’s the AHA.

As a strategist, it’s when you get prioritization, support that supports your subjectivity, by the way, the first thing it’s subject. The other part of it is objectivity. So to say. I actually have a way to quantify. Objectively quantify quality and comprehensiveness, and I used to just have subjectivity, and that’s that’s the big change from an editor perspective, from a writer perspective, as a writer. I get the last point as a writer is I can be on the same page with the person that ordered the content, hey, at least give me two thousand words about this topic.

Here’s the general structure. I’m not going to give them something. And they’re like, no, you completely missed the boat. I’m at least going to be in the ballpark right then. I know that on the artist, on the expert knocking out. So all those things are what everyone that works with market views gets. Right. And then the the the privatization part is the part that’s really the devilish part. I mean, that’s the part that I get pumped about every day.

I mean, and it gets I mean, it’s so cool. And where I can look at my and I have an on demand content inventory. And an on demand content audit on demand topic, so I can say. Hey, Eric, Eric wants me to tell him what article he should write today have the biggest impact on his website. I literally pressed four buttons and I’ve got a list of 20, 30 concepts that if Eric went out and wrote a great article about using his expertize and the end, the outline structure, general outline.

He will be successful, and I can say that with confidence, OK, versus I don’t know or let me go look at this keyword list. Right, but I’m actually your strong and token ring, so go right about X, Y, Z and has semantic relatedness. You have existing authority. You have a gap in some previous pieces. Make sure you link them and intertwine them. When you do write this piece, go write this and have that content confidence.

And I know I’ve got an outsized advantage or I know that if I just update this page and make it better, it’s going to win. Those days are now. That’s what the good people do in this space. And if you’re not doing it or you’re just doing it based on search volume, you’re getting your tail whipped every day and you don’t even realize it. You don’t even realize it. And so that’s really the way that, you know, that’s what gets me out of bed in the morning, because I see people have that aha moment and they’re like, I updated this page and I immediately saw the benefit.

I’m like, I know a good thing about this, you know? And it’s because you’re an expert, you know, it’s because you’re good at it. It’s because you have a writer that knows how to write. It’s that storytelling component. It’s the story does check out that you are an expert because you have this collection of content. If I’m going to cover, you know, network optimization, right. I’m going to likely have content about 90 different concepts.

If I don’t, I’m not the expert. And if anyone tells you otherwise that you can go write one long form article, go pummel it with links. With no support, with no support, I have a bridge they can buy because you know what that does, that gets you short term potential when that’s the Jolt Cola of content. Right. I want you on the smoothie or the really good coffee diet right now.

The this is where it’s a neat thing, too, because there’s so many things that come into the market. And I think one of the biggest. I said, look, I’m going to talk up your product more than anybody else, you know, I won’t make you talk it up because I can look at each thing you just talked about. Being in one spot is incredible because I know there are tools that do, you know, keyword research tools that do something about existing, you know, tuning some of your flow and your art.

There’s tools that do, you know, looking for questions and answers and trying to find, you know, question content that will help you. There are two. But what have I just done? I got a toolbox full of tools at, you know, forty eight bucks a month per tool plus, you know, limits on things. And so you and then I’m the human glue. It’s going to pull it all together and then I get even.

I’m both excited and frustrated when she comes along. And you could go in and you could just like I was amazed by, like I’ve been following the opening stuff since it was started. And when I saw GP2, I’m like, all right, let’s test this bad boy out. Then I did a bunch of really, really well testing. I’ve been working and LPI and I for quite a while doing different stuff. I do it for analysis, actually, for like sentiment analysis, for certain things, because I actually wrote a little app that helps people for mentoring and coaching and they just write daily logs and I get them to say, hey, here’s you know, here’s what I say.

You know this my day starting today. I had a good day of a meeting, Jeff, for a podcast. So I’m excited about that. And then I like on a little slider. How do you feel? How do you feel today? And then I run an LP and sentiment analysis against it to see if you’re lying to yourself. Right. It’s actually kind of neat to see the measurements over time, how people and I can tell when they’re having a bad day.

It’s kind of weird. Yeah. So then two comes along and I can be the reverse. I can write the bloody morning notes for myself and then three came along. And of course that is like the the world could come to an end. And Ellen says we have to stop A.I. before it takes over, like and we see how these sort of like end of the world things. And I actually read your article where you compare your own platform and you very honestly talk about the effectiveness of three.

And I’d actually love to unpack that for folks here. You know, if you don’t mind, just because you’re in the space and you do the stuff now you get three is one of the most amazing things that exists right now. And there’s people launching products in using GPG three, but they aren’t creators, right. They’re app users against DVD three. They’re getting prompts or they have a reseller agreement. They’re creating user interfaces and interactions. But GBG three is three.

It’s a thing and it’s owned by a Open I and Microsoft. About four years ago, five years ago now, we got inspired to start to build in natural language generation and I see I don’t really talk about this too much, but for you, I’ll get into it. I see three main core use cases outside of some of the short form content that’s being touted as the big implementations. But from a usability perspective, you really have Bulc content, right?

You have I’m I have to write 20 thousand articles about this that have this structure. And that is like the Arias, the automated insights, the narrative science. They’ve been trying to do that for financial sites. Washington Post famously launched Helio Grauwe, which is their internal NLG. It uses templates, OK, but with three, it is a language model and we built our own competitor of GPG three and it is focused specifically on expertize. So it built being an expert on a topic, not a general model, that then you can ask a question and it can give you really readable content.

We want it to provide expert content. And so when you looked at the Guardian article, for example, or if you look at some of these structures and I’ll tell you how people are getting around it so openly, I’ll only give you short form prompts. So people are like stacking up multiple prompts and they’re trying to weave together. That’s right.

Gluing together as a total narrative.

There’s a problem there and I will let them go play that game if there’s a short term memory, long term memory concept. But there’s degradation in the analogy. Analogy is a tricky science, right. And good for Google’s language models, six x three right now, their internal model and GBG for whenever it comes out, it’ll probably like tomorrow. As I say, it will be even better. But it’s not tuned specifically for this use case. And what we’re focused on is I want to bring right now all of this.

None of them really will consistently pass muster with the subject matter expert. Yet GBG three reading like, oh, this isn’t true, this is questionable. This is real language. But what I use this, you know, or if you try to publish Cold GBG three content as blog content, you’re going to probably cause some problems. I don’t want to get into all of those problems. It’s it’s like Plato. You have to form it into what it looks like on the box.

Still, you get it to go. Can it be inspirational? Absolutely. I mean, can it get you going. Yeah. Can it give you general structures? Yeah. It’s wonderful what I’m trying to do, the kind of the next version. The next thing. That’s why we call it Markram. Use first draft. I want to give you the first draft that fits within the guidelines of your outline of your brief, for example, and.

Our version now is amazing, but the next version is even more and then because these language models, they just get better and better. So people are looking and they get a first draft. They’re like, oh, well, this still took me two hours to edit. I’m like there. I actually I’m a terrible writer. Right. It’s funny. I’ve been doing this. I just I, I’m like, you know, I you know, I overanalyze it.

I, I, I look at a word. I’m like, there’s something wrong with this. I just get into it. I wrote the first post that I wrote instead of it just being an interview because I can talk as you know. So typically the way that I get stuff out is my content strategists will interview me, get all the energy out of my brain, and then he will craft it because he’s a beautiful storyteller. But I actually wrote a three thousand word article the other day and it took me almost four hours, which for me it’s four hours or I’m not going to do it right.

And I got it done. And I actually did it. And I’m like, oh my gosh, this works. And I’m like, but it’s still it’s still four hours. So some people who can knock out a post in an hour might go, oh, is this really giving me much benefit? Well, it’s all going to catch up. Our next versions are going to be right ahead, our next versions are going to be composed modals, our next versions are going to be validating the outline and get a draft quickly.

Right. So we’re going to be getting to the point where various interactions that you’re familiar with, not just getting payload people judge payload. And it sounds a little esoteric when I say it that way. But when you read that Guardian article, right, you read it and you’re like. I judged it, is it good or is it bad we those weird people you’re talking about the humans, we read stuff and we judge it, right? That doesn’t help you write.

What you need to do is understand how it could help you get to that finished piece and measure the value of that. It’s just like someone doing the keyword research for you. It’s just like me predicting what you should write more well than you would have done subjectively. It’s did me having this draft make it so that I saved 30 to 30 minutes an hour, two hours. Did it make it so that I didn’t write an unsuccessful article and I might have write?

That’s the cost benefit analysis for right now the world is looking at it wrong, sadly still, because they’re like, I want this to write for me, OK? Not the goal yet. Right, because because because the downside of a bad content item and the impact, what happens if you do this and you and you let it run wild and you crash and burn?

It’s a big difference in same week we have this and this is the thing where it also becomes the problem of even the discussion of these platforms and products being used it like, oh, so, you know, so it’s great. I got me at market use. I get first draft. Is it going to replace me? Like, no, no, no, no, no. Like, look, I’m a I’m a content creator, right? When I when I can be and it requires inspiration, focus, you know, certain things.

So look, if someone tells me I need a data sheet, a two pager that tells the story. I can either created from scratch, which will take me about three days, or I can take an old one. Poppy, it is a just do some nuancing. And then what I’ve learned by doing stuff like it’s like, OK, so I can carve whatever in first draft, it gives me the narrative flow that I’m after. You’ve given it the right information to start with.

I can then go in and put my voice on it and I’ve learned like. So this is always the funny thing, too. I think as a content creator, I used to make fun of you. Like I the CTO over at Company X is a really good writer. I’m like, no, I’m a really good writer because I wrote that, I wrote the Quito’s don’t have time to write great articles. They Arktos. But I used to be a there’s many an article out there with someone else’s name on it in my content in there because I was their first draft.

Yeah. Like here’s what I write, you put it out there and so this is for me now. I need a first draft because I don’t have time to do this. I’ve got too many things going on, but I still need to create content. And so what do I do? I’m lost in logistics and I, I haven’t written an article in weeks.

Yep. Yeah. I mean, you’re nailed. You nailed it. And I have the luxury of having one of the most amazing content strategists and multiple great writers on staff who know this game. So when I look at a market news, my market abuse inventory, I said, Hey, Steven, Steven Jaeschke, by the way, go look him up. He’s awesome. He Hey, Steven, we wrote this great article about how to get a Google knowledge panel.

Well, Market News just told me these four other support articles that if we wrote them, they would be successful. His response, I’ll put it in the queue, Jeff. I don’t know. I mean, not like that. But, you know, it goes in the backlog, right? It’s because I that’s that’s an I’ll say, you know, hey, I think a great post with this. This would be from my expert lens. Right.

Because I think it’s something that would be exciting. Right. That’s not going to come out of market news, right? Yeah, I just know, but. We will go check that brief, filed a brief with market and check it, make sure that it’s going to be successful because I can go take any word. And check my existing authority, my competitive advantage, my personalized difficulty and go, oh, I shouldn’t write an article about that because I would need to write 20 to get an impact.

This other one, I write one and I have that impact. Oh, my gosh. Imagine having that skill. Imagine being able to know whether I’ve got to write one or one and how much impact I just did. I just delivered a plan for a client. And before that we said, hey, you either you have two product lines, I won’t say what they are. You’ll get the company to product line technology company. One is less sexy, but you have more authority this this year you need to write about 60 posts on these topics in order to be successful.

And they said, oh, OK. The other one, it’s more sexy. You have no authority and it’s super competitive. You need to write about two hundred and forty posts. Yet they defunded the other product line and invested completely in the one that 60 because they’re like a maybe if things get better this year because last year was tough, we’ll go back and we’ll build that big mass of stuff that you told us we had to build. They knocked out the first ten articles already, double traffic to that section.

So they’re loving us, right, but I mean, this is about business decisions, too, because if I told you, hey, don’t write any more stuff about VMware, you just you’re climbing the climb on the hill. Right? Know, I already read it. All right. But no, you you go into this mode knowing how successful you’re going to be. Right. And that that’s the difference maker. It’s not, you know, not climbing a hill that you’re not going to finish.

Getting to the top, you’re going to stop in the middle and go off and on and on. And here’s the thing, and this is when I implore the bloggers out there who love what they do because they are born into the ecosystem and they don’t want to become the business of blogging. And I tell them all the time, why wouldn’t you want to do that? You can still do the thing. Look, I can be Barry Bonds and I can still go out and play tee ball with my kids.

It doesn’t mean you can’t do what you love. At the same time, so if I wanted to write articles that are going to get me authority, that are going to build revenue, that are going to give me a personal brand, that’s much more far reaching. But I also wanted to say I need to write a bunch of articles about Fiamma because I really dig it. I know I’m not necessarily going to go by like they did a new release.

Like I can carve one of those out because it’s easy and I’m passionate about a second car of one of those out fast. But then I’m not doing 10 of those expecting it to be. Breeding authority and creating brand anymore, but then I can do I it’s like I always tell people this is that I get yelled at all the time. We’re all in marketing and we’re all in sales. And people get really upset by that for some reason. And I’m like, look, I’m the same I’m the same way.

You don’t want to necessarily accept it, but we have to think about what’s next now and when it comes to content. Don’t just rely on being lucky, because guess what, that’s the other two people that were bloggers in the aisle say like the tech target years, like there’s a real hayday of there is folks that are on Ubben. There’s a bunch of different companies that were in that space. You know, it was the birth of stack overflow like it was everything was new.

People were in the VMware forums. We were that was where life occurred for these ecosystems. They were they built future bloggers through these platforms. But that is no different by thinking we can repeat that than it is by wearing your high school football jacket at forty eight and thinking it makes you athletic.

I mean, I love that analogy too. I mean, I’m not going to roll up here with my, with my, my letterman’s jacket and you know, but and it’s kind of like I laugh. What is the man. Jeff, you’ve been doing this since before. It was a thing. I’m like, yeah, but it’s not I’m not doing the same the same stuff. I am still advocating for content quality and I’ve been doing that for a very long time.

And this is now those people. It’s their ideal scenario. They didn’t have to do monster pivot’s when content quality came to be cool because they were already doing it. It had you know, they had to do a few things that change changes their behavior. And, you know, there’s a lot of things and technical and that’s very important, very, extremely important site structures. Now in May, core Web vitals, which is your site’s performance. And that’s going to have a major impact.

You know, but the proof is I mean, there’s a lot that authoritativeness and understanding how that works can give you you can get away with a lot more if you’ve got beautiful content and it makes it so that you’re slightly slow site doesn’t get bombed when stuff happens, which stuff always inevitably happens. But if you think you can get away with a two thousand eighteen, I’m not saying twenty two thousand eighteen publishing model. Over time, your lunch will be eaten by some of these publishers that are machines, and I’m not just talking about my customers, right?

I’m talking about there are a couple who aren’t my customers, which I wish they weren’t because they’re wonderful, that they’ve built their own internal machines and. I am lucky I get to go talk to them and they’re friends of mine and I watch their stuff work and I’m just like, oh my gosh, like market music would make you even more of a deadly weapon. And they’re like, yeah, but we spent ten million dollars on this thing. Like, they’re just going to use it.

And I’m like, yeah, but for like one more million dollars, you can go implement this across your targ. And they’re like, now we spent the summer, but these folks are doing I mean, they have nine D Barry Bonds. Yeah. I mean it literally is that and you’re joking around. And I look at some of these writers hit rates. I mean, 75, 80 percent hit rates on their content. And I’m just like, oh, it’s you get it that’s real.

You can have that today. And and. They the really the biggest thing holding up writers and editors and strategists is just the belief that they don’t have to have that level of predictability and that it is chance and and inertia like or like. I hear this all the time. You don’t understand our industry. You can’t know my stuff. Right. I’m like, now I’ve written about nitrile gloves. I’ve written about ball bearings for trains. I’ve written about, you know, online gambling for bingo and dogs.

I mean I mean, you name it, I’ve it doesn’t matter. The concept doesn’t matter. I mean, like the most esoteric subsection of construction management software, like, I mean, Yorn City. But, hey, there are experts in that. Right. Unless it’s truly something that no one has ever done ever in this whole world, like you created a new branch of science that no one else does like. OK, yeah, it’s all about you.

Unless other than that, it’s empathy. You’ve got to know the customer and you’ve got another buyer journey.

Yeah. OK, so this is the neat thing. And no one you hit on a huge thing. Right, forget about. The industry you’re in. What about the industry you’re adjacent to, could you take the practices you do today and move them to another industry when it’s market use and what you’re talking about? It’s yes, when it’s me, I used to joke I would go to a hotel and I’d be doing like, you know, I’d be there for some user group event and I’d walk in and you’d see the placard, you know, for some other thing.

And it was like the you know, the blood workers, you know, North-Eastern blood worker, collection associates, you know, whatever. Something going on. User group. And and like there’s some person in that room talking about platelet counts and and these people are fantastically enjoying this experience. I’m chuckling from the outside going, you know, there’s an accounting firm and they’re like sitting there joking over drinks, going. And then this idiot fills out a teepee, 294, like, what does he think he’s doing?

So I’m laughing at them the same way that they laugh at me when I talk about whatever I talk about. But I have a huge respect for the fact that I know that what what you’re talking about is creating a process, formulas, systems that we know work across whatever the industry is. And if you get out of your head as a human long enough to say, hey, look, when Ray D’Alessio wrote principles and he talked about using algorithms to make decisions alongside humans that ultimately could free up the humans to do better things with those decisions.

Right. People got angry because they didn’t want to be replaced by the algorithm and I’m like, you’re not being replaced by the algorithm, you’re doing something more goddamn meaningful because. Do you want to Do you really want to be known as the person that did the the decision or do you want to be the person that changed a life because you weren’t sitting in there looking at charts and graphs, trying to find the ideal time to trade a stock?

Yeah, now that I mean. That’s right. I mean, that’s the whole the whole not nuts and bolts of the thing is that you can become a superhero. You can have superhuman abilities by embracing this stuff, does it hurt? Does it hurt a class of person? Yes, so does factory automation. So does, in this case, writing to the market for low quality content across the network. The bar just got raised, and I am happy about that, because you you will not be there will not be an active, successful market for low quality content in, you know, 12 months.

And that is the market that disappears. That’s it. Everything else. Levels up.

And so I tell people all the time and I tell to tell myself. I became we’re very awakened to the value of this when it’s and when you realize when you put skin in the game, you buy a site, you build a blog, you do something where you’re like paying money for it. Like I use an email app called Super Human Funny called Super Human Drama. And I pay 30 bucks a month for this email. And people like Eric, you’re an idiot.

Why would you pay money for an email app? I’m like, because I know I’m paying thirty dollars a month. So every day I use it like it tells me it should be used. I go into my email three times a day. I action every single email in the course of five minutes. Mm hmm. How many times do you open your email app and bury yourself into, to do lists and write stuff down. And so to help you even look, the solves my problem.

I’m willing to pay for it, and as a result, it makes me think hard about my behavior because I know that I’m invested in the outcome and this is when I look, you know, like I said, Mark abused another great example. Why would I take it on? Easy, because I know I’ve got I’m paying for these websites and paying for brand authority, I’m doing all this other stuff, I’m putting out press releases, I’m doing all these things if you’re doing it, to get back to your site where you’re hoping that moderately hard call to action is going to generate revenue for you.

Right. I care a hell of a lot about making sure that the right people find it. Yes. And this is the way to get them there.

It’s fun, too. I got it. It’s so good fun when you write it and you feel like it represents your expertize and you knock it out. I mean, I was joking around about the one article that I knocked out this year, this year. And that wasn’t just on an interview, but watching that one, the number one and organic search for it’s extremely competitive topic like and watching it, I’m like, hey, that’s awesome. That draft was created with artificial intelligence.

I mean, and I added and I modified a great deal of it. But if it what if it hadn’t if the Play Doh hadn’t been built there, I never would have knocked that out. And now I’m number one. I’m not saying that’s going to happen every time, but Marchetti’s told me that I had a great shot at it. If I wrote something great and I did, I wrote something great. And that’s I mean, that’s one example.

But I mean, we have people writing thousands of articles a month with our content briefs and things like that. And they’re having that experience more often. And it does. It gets the teams aligned. It does. It just does. If you don’t believe it, your SEO team gives you a recommendation. The content strategists, the writers, they all actually are on the same page. You knock out the page and it’s successful. When’s the last time you had that group remote hug?

You know, hey, this this actually worked. I mean, and that it is empowering. It really is. I mean, and and it does change themes. And if you think about it or silos, if any of the objections people would have is no different than even a simple like I’m an amateur athlete and I’ll say what I ever say. No, I don’t want a personal trainer. I want to do it on my own. OK, so get a personal trainer.

And a personal trainer says what we should do is we should do like blood testing and check for lactic acid. You’re like, nah, I don’t want to use the numbers. I want to just be anecdotal on how and how it works. No, no, you’re not going to you’re not going to go to the next level if you’re if you’re writing sheerly for the love of writing and that’s a good idea. That’s fantastic. Except you’ll be lucky and it may work out, but whatever it is, I just help people get on the program.

I mean, the to do for anyone listening to this is how lucky are you today. Go do that math. Get your content efficiency rate. Send me a note, I’ll calculate it for you. Trust me. I mean, I do this all the time. I show people how to do a five minute audit. I show people how to do a quick content efficiency rate for themselves. It’s clear the mirror, you know, because you might because then you start hearing the excuses.

Oh, well, that’s a lot of old stuff. I need to delete that anyway. I’m like my no, first of all, don’t delete. Yeah, let let’s talk about that. But do you get to the excuses and but truly, how much content did you create in, let’s say, Q1 or last year and how much of it was successful and put that number on the wall, put that percentage number on the wall and whatever that number is doing, inversion over one hundred percent and then multiply your average cost of content.

That’s your true cost of content and not even an opportunity cost and do that exercise, it’s worth five minutes, trust me, and you’ll go, boy, oh boy, I got I got a problem. I didn’t know I had need to talk to somebody.

So but in the other case, too, is where you’re starting from zero. You know, I’m actually advising a startup and we literally, you know, brand new, you know, we’re using a dot io domain because there’s a dot com already out there. So I’m fighting uphill. But I know it’s a battle that I can win if I use the right tools in the right processes. And then then this.

Yeah, brand new sites are tough, but it’s it’s it’s aspirational. What do we want to own? And then it’s competitive cohort analysis. So we actually are looking at the closest equivalency sites on topics or semantically related topics, how much content that they create, how much content do they update, what’s their off page dynamic? So publishing kadence update, kadence link velocity, how am I how many how much on page value are they acquiring? At what rate.

And now I do that for many sites. Yeah. And now I know. Hey if I go right one hundred thirty five articles in the first quarter and I also have this much marketing dollars brand marketing this much then I can say I can be confident that I’m going to have this much recurring traffic in month eight. Right. That’s what I’m trying to enable to. It’s just another use case. So yeah, I mean it all is possible with these branches of natural language processing, so.

So how do people get started, because I want them in there and I say this like I, I maybe I may be fawning over it a little bit and I can truly say this is this is Miss. I chose to be really excited about this and market muse’s. I’ve read. I studied. I know what’s going on. I’ve seen other products that are out there and I’ve dabbled with a lot of them. And so I say this and I also say it, knowing that I’m literally not incented to say it at this point where we are just we just stumbled upon each other here, you know, and it’s just funny when it all comes together.

So very certainly this is no paid endorsement. This is me. I know the bloody market and I know what what can work. And so how do I get people in to learn more?

Jeff, you know, the two main product lines are separated starting April 1st. We have some different packaging. One is the do it yourself applications. So optimizing existing content, identifying good internal link structures, competitive analysis, research. And that’s one level you can go to the site and buy self-service product led growth focused, offering mass market use standard. If you want the strategic side where there is a content inventory, you want to see your existing content, your strengths and weaknesses, your personalized metrics for difficulty.

If you want that metric for topic authority, that’s our market means premium offering. Give us a buzz, fill out a form and we will sync up with you because there’s a lot of possibilities and customization. You can bring your own wordless configure it in a hundred different ways, but we’ll tune it specifically for what you need and for your size of team. The self-service offering is limited and usage and users premium, offering unlimited users unlimited usage. It truly is a team focused collaborative offering and it keeps getting better and better.

But yeah, go to the website or shoot me a note, Jeff, at Market News.com. Or if you prefer to DM me on Twitter, I answer all those too. Just tell me kind of what you’re thinking and I can put your points. You put you in the right vehicle.

Basically, I thank you because I’m sure there’d be a lot more that I would have loved to dig in on general startup founding and also stuff it. But it’s like this this this topic I’m passionate about. And I know people that listen, they’re in the business of content as well. And I’m just looking at my clock. I’ve totally blown over my time eating up your next. I’m selfishly stealing more knowledge. But Jeff now, fantastic. And I really appreciate, you know, this is stuff.

So there you go, folks. Get on in its market news.com. We’ll have links in the show notes as well. And thank you. This is I love your passion about it because this is. I can tell you it’s born of what you really want to do and how you can amplify people’s effect, and it’s that’s the whole goal. It’s why we do this stuff is like, how do I make someone’s life better than yesterday? And I see how it fits very well.

It is. And that’s really the spirit is to say, you know, I want your editor editorial lead, your content strategist, your content marketing, your demands and people and your CEOs to all not only get along, but feel like, you know, in this case, market news has made them all better. Like, and they’re cool with that, you know, and if that happens, you know, that’s the that’s the stuff. I mean, I nothing makes me feel better than when someone says, oh, yeah, we use market news.

And like, I don’t I couldn’t live without it or we’ve tried something else. It felt more like a trick. Yours your solution makes sense because it my editors love it. Right. Stuff like that is that’s what keeps your blood flowing when you do this. That’s what being a co founder is about to you know, it’s your baby.

The whole thing is a beautiful thing. Awesome. Thanks very much. Thanks, Eric, for sharing.

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Mike Williams is the Founder of BuildLab, a digital development and automation studio dedicated to delivering automation, application and web development services with or without code.

This is something near and dear to me as we discuss the value of low-code alternatives, leveraging services instead of building them, and why getting experts to help on-demand is a fantastic strategy to build and launch your platforms.

Check out Buildlab at https://buildlab.co 

Connect with Mike on LinkedIn here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikewilliamsfounder/

Follow Mike on Twitter here:  https://twitter.com/mikethough 

Sponsored by the 4-Step Guide to Delivering Extraordinary Software Demos that Win Deals - Click here and because we had such good response we have opened it up to make the eBook, Audiobook, and online course, more accessible by offering it all for only 5$

Sponsored by our friends at Veeam Software! Make sure to click here and get the latest and greatest data protection platform for everything from containers to your cloud!

Sponsored by Diabolical Coffee. Devilishly good coffee and diabolically awesome clothing

Rahul Sidhu is the CEO and Co-Founder of SPIDR Tech, which created the world’s first automated customer service platform for public safety agencies. SPIDR Tech has served over 500,000 911-callers and 150,000 crime victims in North America and is a three-time GovTech 100 Company.

We explore the ways in which using digital platforms can fundamentally change the community policing experience and how these tools have already enhanced life for the good of many communities, plus what we can do to keep moving in the right direction.

Check out SPIDR Tech here:  https://www.spidrtech.com/

Connect with Rahul Sidhu on LinkedIn here:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/rahulsidhu/